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▲Life as Slimeasimov.press
47 points by surprisetalk 4 days ago | 30 comments
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necovek 6 hours ago [-]
If anyone is to say "life is just slime on a planet", I'd mostly read into it as how insignificant life forms on Earth really are to the entirety of the Universe.

So, to me, the entire article is arguing a non-point: that's how I would read into the Hawking's statement. It's not about the beauty or complexity of life (or lack of it), but how even such complexity pales in comparison to the vastness of universe itself!

While life as we know it might not exist elsewhere in the universe due to a set of conditions required for it to evolve in such a complex way, there is likely other similarly awe-inspiring stuff (slime or not) throughout the universe — but, we are likely never going to experience any of it, with how restricted we are to existing within the boundaries of our little planet.

xvilka 4 hours ago [-]
Unless we find the "slow life" whose basic building blocks are stars, galaxies, or even galaxy clusters.
ElFitz 3 hours ago [-]
Now that would be a sight.
tim333 7 hours ago [-]
"slime on a spinning rock" is maybe a bit scientifically outdated. Quoting from an NYT article (The Mysterious, Deep-Dwelling Microbes That Sculpt Our Planet):

>even today, some scientists, especially in geology and related fields, continue to describe life as a relatively inconsequential layer of goo coating a vastly greater mass of inanimate rock.

>Such characterizations belie life’s true power. Life significantly expands the surface area of the planet capable of absorbing energy, exchanging gases and performing complex chemical reactions. The Earth-sys­tem scientist Tyler Volk has calculated that all the plant roots on Earth, finely furred with tiny absorptive hairs, make up a surface area 35 times greater than the entire surface of our planet. Microbes are collectively equivalent to 200 Earth areas... https://archive.ph/VgzKD

And life may have shaped the continents by infesting the crust so much that it breaks off and sinks in the magma. More than slime we may be dry rot too!

And soon to begat AI descendants to spread over the galaxy if you buy the singularity stuff. Which I have to say seems kinda inevitable to me though others may differ.

idiocache 12 hours ago [-]
It's a wonderful article but I can't accept the core argument.

Life is rare = life is precious is just a version of the naturalistic fallacy. You are entitled to believe that life is beautiful; you are equally entitled to believe it is a terrible cosmic mistake - acknowledging the rarity of life doesn't obligate you to change your belief.

bko 11 hours ago [-]
> you are equally entitled to believe it is a terrible cosmic mistake - acknowledging the rarity of life doesn't obligate you to change your belief.

I don't know, thinking life and humanity is a "cosmic mistake" seems to be a destructive nihilistic take. Easy to justify horrible things, because why not?

Shouldn't we all seek to be pro-human? All of the things I care about most in this life are human.

cwmoore 8 hours ago [-]
Destructive and horrible events are often very hard to justify without resort to nihilism, which indicates that it may secretly be the truer core belief, and therefore the better foundation for understanding how humanity can become over the arc of time, less often mistaken.
braingravy 3 hours ago [-]
Justifying the existence of horror and evil is not necessary.

It is possible to accept that things happen that you don’t endorse or control, horrible things, without providing a justifying reason for those events.

Unless, of course, you are the one knowingly carrying out those acts. In that case, a level of nihilistic justification is necessary from both leadership and those doing the dirty work.

Death, vile and evil behavior are a part of life. This doesn’t justify their existence.

Nihilism promotes the idea that life is meaningless. Perhaps an attractive idea in a complicated world with countless examples of suffering, horror, and death. I would urge you to consider an alternative conclusion when faced with these realities: The presence of death is necessary for life itself to have any distinct meaning. Once you accept that death is a necessary element for any “life” framework ever evidenced or argued for, vile behavior like systematic genocide can be understood as an outgrowth of the intertwined nature of life and death.

This still doesn’t justify a nihilistic conclusion. For example, if I dropped my cup and it broke, I might be tempted to provide a reason for the destruction of that cup (I was distracted, the coffee was hot, etc.). These explanations might be appropriate, or they might not. Since we are examining the event after it happened, we won’t ever know the exact causal reason (though we might get really close!).

The post-hoc rationalization of past events can only go so far. The causal reasons cannot be fully sussed after an event. (You can get pretty darn close! So it’s worth rationalizing explanations for the possibility of prevention of something like that.)

Regardless, these explanations are not necessary to accept the reality of my broken cup. I may dearly want to know why my cup broke. Perhaps because I liked that cup, or because I simply don’t want to break another cup in the same way, but knowing the reason my cup broke is not a necessary or sufficient element for me to know that I miss my cup and, all things considered, would have rather not had it break.

In the same way, the suffering you see in the world does not need to be justified for it to be condemned.

So, because nihilistic beliefs are (a) unnecessary for condemnation of suffering and evil (bad things are bad, A = A), (b) highly useful for justifying suffering and evil (as you noted), and (c) naturally lead to (at best) inaction in the face of suffering and (at worst) acceptance or even endorsement of suffering (“Well, life has no meaning, so I may as well accept the suffering, and maybe even go so far as to fuel a bit of it for my own benefit. After all, there isn’t a meaningful moral difference between those two options.”)

With those three outcomes as just a few of the natural consequences of practicing nihilism, I fail to see either the logic or utility of nihilism in anything other than providing a very shallow justification for the suffering in the world. It’s an easy puddle to splash around in, but I would encourage you to keep thinking through it: You don’t need to reject morality and ethics simply because immorality, unethical behavior, and unethical people exist.

As a final note: If you want to keep your nihilistic beliefs, you must reject the stated premise above that bad things are bad (A = A in symbolic logic). However, I’d suggest you be very careful about rejecting what you feel to be true (i.e., that destructive and horrible events are indeed destructive and horrible).

Hope this helps. Try not to get trapped by nihilism. It doesn’t lead to anything meaningful, as it’s logically impossible to do so under that framework.

90s_dev 5 minutes ago [-]
That was such a long comment though
idiocache 10 hours ago [-]
Can't we believe that life is a terrible cosmic mistake and still be pro-human?
kurthr 9 hours ago [-]
Create whatever joyful apocalypse your putrid hateful heart desires.

I think the key here is "mistake". I don't really like that word here, any more than I like "precious" as opposed to interesting. Many rare things are just dangerously destructive.

croes 7 hours ago [-]
Not a mistake just a happy little accident.
jagged-chisel 10 hours ago [-]
“Mistake” imparts intentionality. Perhaps life is an accident, but it can only be a mistake if intelligence is behind the cosmos. Observation, not argument.
falcor84 11 hours ago [-]
I agree that "precious" might be too much of a leap, but nevertheless think that there's a legitimate argument here for life being "interesting". I'm particularly reminded of Schrödinger's "What Is Life?", which (amongst other great arguments) posits that life is what actively rejects within itself the increase in entropy (via homeostasis). I'm not aware of any mechanisms doing so that aren't either alive or were assembled by living beings.

This function comes hand in hand with the creation and maintenance of information, and in my opinion makes life particularly "interesting", especially if it is rare in the universe. In other words, if our universe is to be analyzed by a hypothetical external entity, it is likely that a significant fraction of the analysis effort would go towards our small corner of the universe (and any others) with living organisms.

blamestross 11 hours ago [-]
The nifty feature of intelligence is that you get to examine what you value. Critical peer comments (so far) don't seem to address the "naturalistic fallacy" part, or even lean into it.

As far as I am tell, life can be maximally ambiguously defined as "entropy deferral". Nothing can stop entropy, but life crams as much organization into that lifetime as possible. I think that is kinda cool and I want to help, so I think we should make as much matter alive as possible before the universe fizzles out.

Rationalizing value judgments is always a challenge. We can argue over facts and implication of facts all we want, but the "predicate values" are arbitrary and you can't change them in others. I generally don't bother unless I have a strong idea of my audience's "predicate values". If they don't match mine, or I can't manipulate others into agreeing we share instrumental values, I am just out of luck.

deadbabe 11 hours ago [-]
Thinking this way is a necessary prerequisite before pushing humans into an oven.
cwmoore 8 hours ago [-]
How about after?
braingravy 3 hours ago [-]
Only necessary for those who carried out those actions and want to live afterward without remorse.
api 11 hours ago [-]
Without life nothing is precious or a mistake. There is nothing to make a value judgement.
aacid 37 minutes ago [-]
Life on Earth would be perfect ecosystem without human. Sure lion eats zebra but there are no animal species capable of eradicating other species. my (very amateurish) opinion is that "high inteligence" is very effective and successful short term genetic strategy (it allowed very average mammal species to become absolute apex predator) but long term it is very unsustainable and self destructive. Look at the lion, apex predator in his environment and it is completely content. People are never content, always need more and more. We are intelligent but so bored that we spend most of our time finding out new ways to kill or at least hate each other.

yea, I'm not a big fan of Humanity...

oh_my_goodness 11 hours ago [-]
Are you personally alive?
Isamu 10 hours ago [-]
No mention of Rimuru Tempest? I don’t know why I expected it but I did.
koakuma-chan 9 hours ago [-]
I see you're a man of culture as well.
valenterry 7 hours ago [-]
Happy to see I'm not alone.
b0a04gl 10 hours ago [-]
> “it's time to retire the just slime’ metaphor”

hits hard. we’ve used that phrase to downplay life’s complexity, but statistically, life is the anomaly not the default. the blog nails it: we’ve only found life in one corner of one planet, under a very narrow set of conditions. framing it as mundane is a denial. we’re surrounded by sterile rock and radiation and somehow expect slime to be obvious

tim333 8 hours ago [-]
>we’re surrounded by sterile rock

The jury's out on Mars. It may well not be sterile.

ninetyninenine 7 hours ago [-]
I thought the slime metaphor was to illustrate the fragility and rarity of it. It’s a thin film of slime and that’s all life is in the grand scheme of things. Like the surface of a bubble.
megaloblasto 11 hours ago [-]
Life as a slime shouldn't be so rough
tempodox 10 hours ago [-]
Indeed, it should be slick and smooth.
bevr1337 9 hours ago [-]
> So, is it right to say biology is “just” a planetary fungal infection?

Excellent closing statement. In my own life, I'm working to remove "just" from my vocabulary so it's fun seeing this called out in other context.